The Legal Side of Collaborations w/ Nicole Cheri Oden
Ever thought about the legal considerations of things like podcast guesting or guest blogging?
Neither had I—until Nicole mentioned it…
^^affiliate link
About 2 minutes after I opened Nicole Oden’s email—I asked her to join me on the podcast! I’d never had anyone bring up the legal considerations for collaborations. Besides, we were long overdue for a catch up conversation (about 4 years 👀 overdue to be exact).
Nicole & I met years ago in a networking group (quite fitting given the topic of today’s episode!) & never fell out of touch. See… I’m super picky about who I choose to do collaborations with—including guests I introduce you to on this podcast—and today you’re going to learn why that is so critical to the health & success of your business. And other legal considerations you should take into consideration for various types of collaboration opportunities!
Topics covered in this podcast episode:
Different types of collaborations
The hidden benefits of collaborative marketing
Legal considerations for podcast collaborations
Legal considerations for guest blogging collaborations
The importance of clear license languaging
Why consider a cyber insurance policy
Legal considerations for affiliate marketing
How to find an attorney to work with when you’re ready
Meet: Nicole Cheri Oden
A licensed attorney in the State of California for 12+ years, Nicole left Big Law to start her own virtual law firm – Nicole Cheri Oden Law, PC – to make trademark registration and boutique legal services accessible to small business owners across the United States.
After Nicole started working with fellow online entrepreneurs, she found many of them were overwhelmed by their legal needs. So she opened her digital shop, Legal Templates and More, to bring legal awareness and protection to small business owners. Her attorney-drafted templates are customizable for almost every industry – making legal protection available to everyone!
Mentioned Resources:
Related Episodes:
Top 5 Missed Opportunities with Collaborations (Brittany on Systems Saved Me Podcast)
Navigating Networking Events as an Introverted Entrepreneur w/ Angela Tan
Connect w/ Nicole:
Website (Templates)
Website (Contract & Trademark Law)
Connect w/ Brittany:
This episode of The Basic B podcast is brought to you in partnership w/ Leah Bryant Co.! Help me reach more service providers like you by following the show & leaving a rating or review on Apple & Spotify!
The unedited podcast transcript for this episode of The Basic B podcast follows
Welcome back to the Basic B Podcast. I'm so happy to have you here and I'm really excited because I get to talk to my friend, Nicole Sherry Odin. And we're chatting all about the legal side of collaborations. And frankly, I'm going to make sure that I link the email because this whole conversation was inspired by an email that Nicole sent out and I was like, literally wrote back to her and I was like, can you please come on the podcast because we all need some help. So before I bring her on, let me introduce you to Nicole. A licensed attorney in the state of California for 12 plus years, Nicole left Big Law to start her own virtual law firm, Nicole Sherry Odin Law PC, to make trademark registration and boutique legal services accessible to small business owners across the us. After Nicole started working with fellow online entrepreneurs, she found many of them were overwhelmed by their legal needs. Hands up if that's you. Cause it's totally me. So she opened her digital shop, Legal Templates and More to bring legal awareness and protection to small business owners. Her attorney drafted templates are customizable for almost every industry, making legal protection available to everyone. Hello, my friend.
Nicole Cheri Oden: Hi. I'm so excited to be here and chat with you today.
Brittany Herzberg: I know. Finally. And it was funny, before I hit record, we figured out that we met like years ago in an online community. So it's kind of cool that we're now going to be able to chat collaborations.
Nicole Cheri Oden: Yeah. And it's funny because I've watched your journey along the way and like been cheering you around the whole time. And some of my best friends, that's kind of where I've met is in the online space. So it's really neat to me to be able to work with my clients and make friendships with people I've never even met in real life. So I know.
Brittany Herzberg: And they're everywhere, at least for me. Like, they're literally all over the globe. It's really cool. All right, I'm going to hit you with the question I ask everyone before we get into the topic. So as a reminder for the audience, there are no wrong answers. So whatever comes through is perfect. Which do you believe is the most important for sales? SEO storytelling or social proof Storytelling. Ooh, say more.
Nicole Cheri Oden: Yeah, I think people connect with stories and it's something that I'm experimenting with and fine tuning and tweaking in my own copy and advertising and everything that I do. Because, you know, it's one thing to show that social proof with clients. I think it's a component of it, but I Think people connect with stories and they see themselves in stories, and you make them the hero versus you and your business. And so I just. I think it's a fun way to kind of grow exposure for your business by sharing stories.
Brittany Herzberg: I love that answer. Really, honestly, like, every single one is right, though, so good job. All right, so with collaborations, just, like, let's start from square one. What are some different collaboration types that come to mind or that you find yourself, I don't know, creating legal resources for or even just talking with people about?
Nicole Cheri Oden: Yeah, I mean, it's so fun because collaborating feels like such a natural way for you to team up with not just friends, but also, like, business colleagues and even people in different industries to kind of gain exposure through both audiences. But things like podcasting or guest blogging or affiliate programs or referral programs, joint ventures, events, retreats, workshops, there's so many different ways that you can kind of brainstorm, like, hey, let's work together, and girl, exposure.
Brittany Herzberg: Yeah. You even mentioned more than I had even thought about. Like, even retreats and workshops, I was like, oh, I had, like, a short list prepared. Like, gee, there's so many. And people are constantly like, I'm in Jordan Gill's world, and I'm always watching to see, like, what collaboration she pops up with, and she thinks of some things that are outside of the box that maybe she's, like, the way shower with them. There's so many different things we can do. So in your personal opinion, what's the power of collaborations? Like, you mentioned? Definitely the exposure, but, like, what else do we get?
Nicole Cheri Oden: Yeah, well, I mean, you're building credibility, right? Because you're essentially borrowing somebody else's audience. They've built that no, like, trust factor with their audience. And so you're borrowing that, and they're giving you that platform to share. I also think it lends to creativity because, you know, as online business owners, a lot of us have very small but mighty teams. And so when we're brainstorming, yes, it's great to have our contractors or even our handful of employees jump in, but if you take it to maybe a parallel industry or even a whole total other industry, they may be doing something completely different. You wouldn't have thought applied in your industry, but you can think of a way to, oh, maybe I can apply that this way, or tweak it for my industry. And so I've seen some really great new ways to collaborate come out of just brainstorming with people that are coaches and speakers and authors and people that I work with, but they're in completely different industries and different things work for them. So.
Brittany Herzberg: Yeah. And I actually feel like that's one of the coolest places to collaborate or to seek out collaboration partners because your brains are different. You know, when I was had my massage practice, I had a lot of engineers. I discovered that I really related to like the logic of their brain and how just their brain works out these puzzles. And then I'd had a literal artist who would paint and you know, her brain worked in a completely different way. But it's really neat to collaborate with different people because of the industry, because of how their brain works, because of the creativity that's possible. I love that. That's such a great perspective on it.
Nicole Cheri Oden: Yeah. And from like a different perspective. So I'm an attorney and I'm like self professed, like super analytical, like left brain, like that's where I live. But a lot of my clients come to me and they're more right brain and they're more in the creative industries. And so it's kind of like this yin and yang when we work together. And so earlier this year in April, I actually sponsored an event for one of my clients. And she's more in kind of the metaphysical space. And it's coaching, but it's more of the mindset, personal development side of things. And so it was fun for me to watch. You know, here I am in my business attire with my sponsorship table, chatting about trademarks with people and she's up there talking about feminine and masculine energies and how that plays into money growth. And she's doing breathwork and all of these things. And you know, she sold like $2.2 million from stage in a 24 hour period. And I'm just, I was like in awe. So it's so intriguing to me to watch these different perspectives and these different ways that you can run your business. And it just had my brain going a million different directions. And I came home with all sorts of different ideas to implement for my law practice.
Brittany Herzberg: I can only imagine my brain would have been doing the same thing. And actually, like, even as you're talking, collaborations are definitely cool for our audiences and very beneficial for them. But I also find as you're talking, I'm reflecting, I'm like, oh yeah. There have been plenty of times where I've been part of a collaboration that actually benefited me, where it felt like it filled my cup up or exposed me to something that I wouldn't have known about before.
Nicole Cheri Oden: Yeah. And so it's like the intangible that you get out of the collaborative process too, I think. I think it makes you so much more well rounded when you're not just like a business of one. So.
Brittany Herzberg: Yeah. All right, so how do you feel about, like, maybe let's look at the legal considerations for some different types of collaborations. Sound good?
Nicole Cheri Oden: Yeah.
Brittany Herzberg: Okay, so podcasts, since we're here, let's start with the podcast. So what are some of those things that I'm probably not doing that I should be doing?
Nicole Cheri Oden: Well, if you have a podcast and you bring guests on, you should have a guest podcast release. To have your guest sign that essentially says that they're participating and they're sharing their face and their voice and their opinions, and you own the recordings, and there is a license for you to have the use of those recordings and use them how you see fit. Maybe edit an episode. You know, it'll talk about things like, you know, are they going to get payment? If you decide that you're going to use the recordings maybe in a course or in a seminar or some other type of format other than the podcast, can they use the recordings? There's all sorts of different things you have to think about, because the intellectual property rights that come with your guests words and what they're sharing on your episodes, it's their intellectual property. You own the recordings because you're recording. So those are your rights. But, you know, as I'm speaking today, these are my words. And so having that release that says, hey, you can use my words for your podcast, or if you're going to use it in a different manner, having that license for you to use it is really key.
Brittany Herzberg: Hypothetically, someone doesn't have the release in place and they've already recorded with guests. What should one do at that point? Like, is there any going back to guests and just being like, hey, I want to make sure that we're covering both of our tushes, or like, what do you do?
Nicole Cheri Oden: Yeah, I've had this conversation with quite a few clients, actually. That comes after they've been podcasting for a year or two and they've got, you know, maybe hundreds of episodes under their belt and they're like, so launched. And then I brought on, like a bigger name and they were like, well, where's the release? And they won't record unless there is a release. So it is possible to get something in place and send it after the fact and say, hey, like, we're cleaning up the legal backend of the business. We'd love for you to sign this release. Just so that things are really, really clear about your rights, my rights, responsibilities going forward. And just be really clear with the people that you've had on and you know, 90% of the time they're just going to sign the release and go along their merry way with all contracts. I mean, you have to kind of expect there might be some push and pull and some requests for revisions to certain provisions. I mean, that's kind of part of business and contract negotiations. So you just kind of have to be comfortable knowing there may be a little bit of pushback. But for the most part, most people will sign the release and because it protects them too. Right. It gives them expectations in terms of like, you're not just running out there and maybe like selling it in terms of the course or, or maybe you want to be able to include it in other materials. And I have a podcast guest release template in my legal shop on nicoletrioden.com and it is pretty expansive and it allows you to use the recordings kind of as you see fit. And your guests, you know, they agree to that in advance. So it's kind of knowing your expectations and what you want to do with the episodes and drafting a release that's really clear and lays it out for your guests.
Brittany Herzberg: I love that you pointed out something that to me is really important, that it's not only good for me, but it's also beneficial for the other person who's signing it, whether it's a client or a podcast guest or whoever else we're going to talk about today.
Nicole Cheri Oden: Yeah, well, I mean, because legal is a two way street, right? I mean, it's most of the time we want to protect our tush. I mean, it is what it is, right? As a business owner, we want to make sure we're protected, but it's also making sure that those expectations and those boundaries are really clearly laid out for our clients, our customers, our collaborators, whatever it may be. And that's kind of why I like to try and reframe the view of how we look at legal. It makes it a little bit more accessible.
Brittany Herzberg: Even as you're saying that, I'm thinking, like, what are the times that I've signed contracts? Well, like a rental agreement or purchasing a car or something like that. And it can feel very much like it's protecting the other person and not you. Like you don't feel like you're being looked after. They often feel one sided. But especially in something like this where the whole point is collaborations, you know, you definitely want to have something in Place. I understand. For both parties.
Nicole Cheri Oden: Yeah. I mean, because, you know, chances are slim, but things go south sometimes, right? You can have an issue come up. You could hit record with somebody and decide that you don't want to air the episode just because for whatever reasons, maybe you don't agree with points of view they shared. Maybe it just was a really awkward interview. Whatever it may be. So your podcast guest release would lay out that you have the right to choose not to air an episode versus if you don't have an agreement, somebody could be really mad because they were relying on that episode for some reason and, you know, start a whole huge thing. So, again, it's just about expectations.
Brittany Herzberg: Yeah, that's a very good perspective. Is there anything else that you see podcast hosts or guests missing when it comes to legal? Yeah.
Nicole Cheri Oden: I mean, so having a guest release is really key to make sure that you have the rights to share the episodes. I think, too, if you have like a podcast editor or somebody who's behind the scenes, like, managing your podcast for you, having one of those agreements in place is also important to make sure there's expectations. And normally that would come from your podcast manager, your podcast editor, whoever it is that you're working with. But again, laying out clear expectations in terms of like, when do you have to get the recordings to them, how soon do they turn them around to you? What is your podcast manager doing? How many episodes are they posting a month, and for what price? And all those things that seem very basic. But again, it's like a rule book, right? So if something goes south, you can look at the rulebook and say, okay, this is how it was supposed to go. What does my contract say? If things didn't go that way, like, what do we do next? And you've already kind of had that meeting of the minds. Cause you guys have both signed the agreement.
Brittany Herzberg: That's a really good point. You mentioned one of my other favorite things, which is guest blogging. What's the legal side of guest blogging?
Nicole Cheri Oden: Yeah, so every now and again hear something come out about how like, oh, blogging's dead. But it's funny cause I don't really feel like it's gone anywhere. If anything, I.
Brittany Herzberg: It hasn't.
Nicole Cheri Oden: Yeah. I think it's making almost a comeback because of the thought leadership piece. With AI trending, you can very clearly tell when somebody's kind of spit into ChatGPT, like, hey, give me a blog post on blog. You can tell it's AI drafting.
Brittany Herzberg: You can tell.
Nicole Cheri Oden: But if you're actually leaning into the thought leadership piece and drafting blog posts and you have somebody else come on to do a guest blog post for your site. Again, you want to make sure that there is a release in place that says what you can do with the blog post, also including provisions like, this is my copyrighted material, like this is something that I drafted. It's an original work of authorship and I will hold you harmless if somebody comes after you and says that you're infringing because it's on your site and it's my work. So things like that. Again, if things go south or something happens, it's just a fail safe.
Brittany Herzberg: Yeah. So I have a couple of guest blog posts that are out there and I don't know, but let's say like I change my opinion on something or I learn a bit of information that then makes me want to say, actually this isn't a best practice anymore and I perhaps want to update something or pull something from that blog. Is that something that could go in that contract or release?
Nicole Cheri Oden: Yeah, because you're going to have language in there that very clearly gives a license in terms of you have the license to use this guest blog post on your website and how it's drafted. I mean, is it a blanket license? Like once it's theirs, it's theirs. Is it a revocable license so that you could come back and say, hey, like again, I don't agree with that position anymore, or I think things need to be tweaked again. 90% of the time, somebody probably really excited for you to do an update because it's more fresh content for their blog. But there's always a chance that maybe somebody went a different direction and isn't providing those types of things anymore on their website and they just don't want to deal with it. So having that clear language in the release is really important.
Brittany Herzberg: Yeah, that's a good point because I could have written a blog about massage cupping or something like that. And now that I'm doing SEO copywriting, I don't necessarily want my name to be thought of when people think of massage. I want it to be more of like the SEO copywriting and that kind of thing. That's a really good point.
Nicole Cheri Oden: To that point though, I think that, and this is coming for me because I've had quite an interesting journey too in transitioning from family law to online business law. But I think that there's something to be said in like watching that full journey. So I think it would almost be more interesting if you again taking massage, cupping and turn it into somehow how like, that led you on your journey in the online space and like, where the business went. So sorry, that's kind of a sidebar.
Brittany Herzberg: But no, I mean, that's a lot of what I have on the about page, but I hadn't even thought about taking that and turning it into a blog. But that's very smart. Thank you for the. If I disappear for the next four months, you know, why Is there anything else that we might be missing from the blogging perspective? Because honestly, I hadn't even thought about guest blogging in a release for that.
Nicole Cheri Oden: Yeah, I think it really is just like leaning into the language about it being their original material. I think that's kind of like the key also. You know, are they getting paid for the blog post? Is this really just for exposure, having that language in there? Can you do anything else with the blog post in terms of, like, is it just for your website? Can you post it in your membership? Can you turn it into like a podcast in terms of maybe just reading points? But I think the key piece that I've seen on the attorney side of things, when things go south, it really does kind of come down to, like, that very clear license language and what you can do with it and making sure that it is original work and it's not you typing things into your Google search bar and copying and pasting saying, here's my guest blog. Put it on your website. Because I've had some very interesting cease and desist letters come from people that did that. So no, no, don't do that.
Brittany Herzberg: No, please don't do that. So, okay, on that point, though. So let's say I get the guest blogging, you know, release from you, I implement that, and then I have some situation where a person wants to remove that blog post from my website. At that point, what do I do? Do I come to you? Do I need to hire other legal representation? What does that look like?
Nicole Cheri Oden: I mean, I guess it's kind of like a cost benefit decision, right? Like, does it make sense to fight to have somebody else's blog post on your website when they don't want it up there anymore? Like. Cause it's kind of as easy as saying delete. I mean, if it's like the main blog post driving traffic to your website, maybe there's a reason you want to fight for it. And if you've got that release language that very clearly says you've got like, unrevocable license to their content, then you can always push back. But this is Kind of one of the conversations I have with my small business owners is like, where do you want to spend the money in the fight? And note, I always recommend getting a cyber insurance policy. Like, this is a main segue, but I feel like it goes hand in hand with your website because if they get in trouble because they have copied and pasted from Google and they submitted it to you, and so now you're also in trouble if you have cyber insurance, a lot of the time there's provisions in there for intellectual property issues, will help pay fees and damages. And so it's kind of like an extra protection too, if that ever comes up. But yes, you can always chat with an attorney if you have somebody to come to you to say, hey, what are my options? What way can I go? What can I do? And then weigh it out with them in terms of how you want to respond.
Brittany Herzberg: Yeah, I mean, is it very common for you to see something like that?
Nicole Cheri Oden: No. Most of the time people write the guest blog post because it's the site that's going to also be driving them traffic and visibility. I think your example of, like, tweaks and updates and changes is kind of something that I see. And a lot of the time, most of the time, people are open to like, hey, okay, well, let's leave this initial blog post in place because there's the SEO juice built behind it, Right. And let's put a note in there that says, hey, this has been updated. Head to this more recent one. And then there's kind of more traction for both of you guys. So I see that more frequently. Something.
Brittany Herzberg: I love that, especially from an SEO perspective because the updates are definitely amazing. You definitely get SEO. The updates are amazing because I always like to say Google's looking for where the party's at. So if you're updating things or if you're adding pages or if you're whatever it may be, whatever activity is going on, Google's like, oh, they got something pretty cool going on over there. Okay. And then they want to see people come in and stay and all that good stuff. But I also like the idea of linking it to, like, hey, there's an updated version over here. And just providing them that link that. That is so smart from an SEO side of things. I love it. This is great. Okay, so another, you know, collaboration example would be like affiliate marketing. What's the legal side of all of that?
Nicole Cheri Oden: Yeah, so affiliate marketing is complicated sometimes.
Brittany Herzberg: It's a big one.
Nicole Cheri Oden: Yeah. Well, I mean, the Federal Trade Commission, the FTC is involved in online advertising. And so they have kind of their own like very strict set of rules. And so if you sell digital products, digital courses, downloadables, any of those types of things, and you have an automated affiliate program on your website. So if somebody uses one of your affiliates links and then it tracks back to them when somebody makes a purchase, you have to have kind of very clear guidelines in terms of like what's okay and what's not for their advertising. So that you're abiding by what the FTC says is allowed and not allowed. So having really clear terms and conditions for your affiliate program I think is one of the best things that you can do for yourself because it's again is going to outline all those expectations for like can they self purchase, can they use their affiliate link to purchase things for themselves and then get a kickback? Where can they advertise? You know, you want to be very clear, maybe you don't want your affiliate link on, you know, pornographic websites or websites that sell guns or like, and it sounds kind of like, oh my gosh, do I really have to stoop that low? Well, I mean if people are going to be getting a payout from using your affiliate link and they're going to be blasting it all over the Internet, you want to have some control in terms of like these are the rules and if you don't follow them, then you're no longer an affiliate.
Brittany Herzberg: Right. What issues do you see come up with affiliate marketing?
Nicole Cheri Oden: Well, so that's one of them where people go blast their affiliate link all over websites that they shouldn't be on and then having to pull them from the program. I've seen some people go in and like try and recreate things that they've signed up for to use in their own business and pass it off as theirs. And this goes to just digital products too. Having terms of use for your products that people are purchasing that says, hey, you can't use my product to create a competing product and then try and pass it off as your own and sell it. The self purchasing can be a pain in the butt sometimes I think issues with viewpoints too and having like a very clear like expectations of what my affiliates can and can't do when they're sharing things. You know, we're in a really politically charged climate. People have very strong opinions and so kind of vetting your affiliates to make sure that not that they're all like people that are just like you, that's not what you want your affiliate program to be, but you also don't want them out there spewing hate speech and then being connected to you and your programs. So again, having those terms and conditions that kind of include what they can and can't do as an affiliate. And then you have a gentle. Like, if you're not abiding by these, then you can be removed from the program. So you can say, sorry. Like, look at this paragraph of provision. It's just not working out anymore.
Brittany Herzberg: Here's the door.
Nicole Cheri Oden: Bye.
Brittany Herzberg: Bye. It's so funny because it really does sound like it's just the basics and it should be common knowledge. And yet even thinking about going and using my affiliate link somewhere where I shouldn't be, I'm like, I just wouldn't do that. But the fact that not only does it cross someone's mind, but that they take action on it, it's like, oh, okay. People are out here doing crazy things.
Nicole Cheri Oden: They are. And I mean, that's kind of part and parcel of the online business world. Right. It's an amazing place because it has made starting a business. Like the barrier to entry is de minimis. Anybody can go buy a domain, set up hosting, launch a website, and be selling things in a very short period of time, whether it's services or, you know, digital products, or drop shipping or whatever it may be in the online space. But with that low barrier to entry, it's also made people skip some of the fundamentals that should be in place before they're launching. You know, in my opinion, having written contracts in place is one of the first things that you should do, really. Chatting with an attorney and just getting the legal lay of the land in terms of, should I form an entity? Should I form an llc? Am I fine being a sole proprietor? What insurance do I need? What contracts do I need? And then you start bringing in clients or you start making sales. Like, that foundation is really key to making sure that you're protected. But there is some skipping the steps that happens.
Brittany Herzberg: Yeah. I also think there's a lot of just like intimidation.
Nicole Cheri Oden: Yeah.
Brittany Herzberg: Because if I think back to when I started either of my businesses, just like the intimidation factor is like so high because it's like, I'm just a little of me over here. Do I really need to go talk to an attorney? And the answer is yes. So, I mean, is that something that you offer or do you have a place that you, you know, recommend people go to talk to an attorney?
Nicole Cheri Oden: Yeah. And this is kind of what led to me starting my online business is I had kind of stumbled into the online space myself in 2016, after having my daughter and I would start connecting with female business owners online, and they'd find out I was an attorney. And I'm like, in my DMs on Instagram and Facebook, and they're like, I got this contract. What does this provision mean? Or I'm trying to decide, should I form an LLC or am I fine staying a sole proprietor? And to my attorney brain, right? Because it's not intimidating to me. I went through law school. Like, this is something that I deal with on a daily basis. Like, why don't you just go talk with an attorney? And like, 90% of the time I was like, cause they're old, white, stuffy males. It's really expensive. It's really scary. There's so much legalese. Like, can you just answer my questions? And so, in addition to my virtual law firm, I launched Legal Templates and more. And so I have a legal shop that has basic legal templates that are based on contracts I've drafted for clients. So everything from your website policies, your terms and conditions, your privacy policy, to client agreements, if you're a service provider or coach, to releases.
Brittany Herzberg: So.
Nicole Cheri Oden: So podcast guest release, a guest blog post release, an online guest expert release, testimonials. Also something you need your clients to sign before you go start sharing those happy words of you can snag a template and customize it for your business, knowing it's not legal advice. Yes, it's based on an attorney contract, but it's a good starting point while you're deciding to start working with an attorney, because it's going to come up. You can't avoid working with an attorney your entire business life, but you can get some basics in place to at least get going and make sure you.
Brittany Herzberg: Have that foundation and even just like, thinking through collaborations to, like, bring the whole circle back together again. That's why I love connecting with so many different business owners online, because I know you. I have a handful of other attorneys that I just know and someone was asking for. I think it was a trademark attorney or something like that. Regardless, it came up in conversation where someone was like, I need to talk to someone like this. And I was like, let me just go through my Rolodex of all the people that I know and all the attorneys that I know because it can be really scary. And Google is amazing. SEO is great, and the personal referral is always going to be number one because you know that person, they're in your world. For some reason, you trust them. If they say a person's name. Guess what? You're still going to go to the website and check everybody out. But the trust is just so much higher right there, right off the bat. Which is another reason why I like bringing on people that I know, who I've worked with, who I trust. Because then, you know, hearing someone is just a different level of a connection. That was one thing that Clubhouse, I think, did really well. I don't know why Clubhouse has been on my brain today, but it has. And the fact that you could just drop in and hear someone speaking. There were people that after three seconds, I was like, they're not confident. Or, ooh, something feels off, or, oh, I don't really agree with that. Whatever. It was like, audio allows you to do that in such a cool way that's, like, almost instant.
Nicole Cheri Oden: Yeah, agreed, 100%. And I think that referrals are just such a big part of business. I mean, yes, there's Facebook ads and all sorts of marketing, but at the end of the day, like, one of the biggest drivers for both my businesses has been referrals. And to me, I appreciate those clients because they're sending more people my way because they've enjoyed working with me. And I'm the same way I. When I work with a service provider or I have a product or, you know, whatever it may be, I mean, like a Moonology journal that I was loving, and I'm, like, spouting it from the rooftop. It's just natural, right? When it's somebody that you know like and trust and they're sharing something, you're like, oh, okay, I'm gonna go check that out, or I'm gonna go talk to that person. And it just makes it feel so much more accessible versus just seeing a Facebook ad.
Brittany Herzberg: You're actually, like, very approachable, and you make things very easy to understand. And so people love you, but if they just see, like, a certain image of you or me or whatever, then it's like they can conjure up whatever story behind that that they want to.
Nicole Cheri Oden: Yeah. And it's funny because I went to a networking meeting for, like, one of the groups I was in, and I have tattoos, but I keep them covered for the most part. I mean, it's just kind of been drilled into me because of law, school, you know, and being professional. And so I forget about them sometimes. And sometimes I'll wear, like, a tank top and stuff. And I think that's one of the coolest things about having my own business and, like, being able to set the tone and tenor For I don't want to feel stuffy, and I don't want to come off as not approachable. I enjoy that my clients and I have a good rapport, and we can speak normally, and then I have to switch into legalese to explain things, and then I can switch back. And that's just kind of one of the tenants of my business. So. And that's how I want legal to be for all online business owners. Honestly, I don't want it to feel stilted or scary. I think it should just be a conversation, even with your clients. I mean, you should understand what your contract says and being able to sit down and kind of just have a casual conversation about, hey, this is what my contract says. And do you have any revisions? No. Okay, let's sign. And away we go. That's what I want to normalize.
Brittany Herzberg: I couldn't agree with you more. All right. I know that this is going to happen. Someone's going to be listening. They're going to be like, where can I find Nicole? So where can they find you, Nicole?
Nicole Cheri Oden: So you can head to the legal shop@nicolesherioden.com or if you are in need of help with trademarks or contracts, if you're based in California, you can head to Nicole shariodenlaw.com and that is my virtual law firm.
Brittany Herzberg: I love it. Thank you so much for joining me and breaking all of this down and just being a normal person who happens to speak legalese.
Nicole Cheri Oden: Thank you for having me. I don't think I've laughed this much on a podcast, so I know it's been fun.
Brittany Herzberg: It's not the first time I've heard that. All right, I will catch you guys next time.
